mccldwll
Apr 27, 08:38 AM
Apple's solution is fine by me. They wouldn't have done anything if there wasn't so much press about it, but I guess that's a good reason (one of the only ones) for the press to exist. Still, they all managed to get it a bit wrong, though. I noticed (like so many others out there), that the map wasn't recording my EXACT location, but just cell towers and wifi spots I may have accessed. The info didn't really bother me. It wasn't like it had me pegged at my local pub - or did it?!?! =)
I looked at the map from a recent road trip. It showed cell towers 50 miles off the route I was on--probably next towers over in case I headed that direction. It's the apple bashing trolls who are blowing this way out of proportion.
I looked at the map from a recent road trip. It showed cell towers 50 miles off the route I was on--probably next towers over in case I headed that direction. It's the apple bashing trolls who are blowing this way out of proportion.
notabadname
Apr 8, 12:10 AM
Every day Apple stores get shipments of iPads....but they don't sell them when the arrive. They hold them for the line that forms the next morning.
Seems odd to me. Like they are purposely making a spectacle in front of the store every morning.
This morning the store I went to had NO AT&T models?!?!?! So tomorrow morning there will be yet another line of those that failed today (including myself).
On topic, I called Best Buy and was told that unless I pre-ordered before the day of the sale, I could not get an iPad 2. My co-worker walked in last week off the street and purchased one. Why the inconsistent message? I don't get it.
Not really a spectacle. They take the evening's drop shipment and get it into inventory. they sell it at the three places I can check before the Mall even opens, for example: Kenwood Town Center in Cincinnati opens at 7:00 for mall walkers. They let people in line at that time. The store opens at 8:00 to give "reservations" to the line standers for their choice of the available stock. They start processing/selling at about 8:30 and distribution is usually complete before 10:00 when the mall stores open and shoppers arrive. Apple doesn't open for sales till 10:00 either. So they are actually avoiding the spectacle and line in front of the store during normal hours, which you would have if everyone showed up around 4:00 or 5:00 to be around for the afternoon drop-shipment.
Seems odd to me. Like they are purposely making a spectacle in front of the store every morning.
This morning the store I went to had NO AT&T models?!?!?! So tomorrow morning there will be yet another line of those that failed today (including myself).
On topic, I called Best Buy and was told that unless I pre-ordered before the day of the sale, I could not get an iPad 2. My co-worker walked in last week off the street and purchased one. Why the inconsistent message? I don't get it.
Not really a spectacle. They take the evening's drop shipment and get it into inventory. they sell it at the three places I can check before the Mall even opens, for example: Kenwood Town Center in Cincinnati opens at 7:00 for mall walkers. They let people in line at that time. The store opens at 8:00 to give "reservations" to the line standers for their choice of the available stock. They start processing/selling at about 8:30 and distribution is usually complete before 10:00 when the mall stores open and shoppers arrive. Apple doesn't open for sales till 10:00 either. So they are actually avoiding the spectacle and line in front of the store during normal hours, which you would have if everyone showed up around 4:00 or 5:00 to be around for the afternoon drop-shipment.
skunk
May 1, 04:09 AM
While there are some racists who tried to jump on the birther bandwagon, I did see plenty of non-racists have some concern about where Obama was born, or if in Hawaii, being born there before it was a state and then being a coverup to put his age right after statehood.If those people really were non-racists, they would have ignored such questions entirely, confident in the knowledge that if anything untoward was going on, the World's Greatest Intelligence Agency� would have found it out before he even got his name on the ballot.
4God
Jul 14, 02:32 PM
If true, these definitely would be powerful machines, however for people like myself, the power and resulting price tag will be simply too much to justify. Leave the Xeons for the PowerMacs, but introduce some mini-tower machines with Conroe chips - they would fit nicely between the iMac and PowerMac. For me, the Mac mini isn't enough, the iMac is great, however non-upgradeable. I'd like something upgradeable, where I could replace/upgrade HDDs, optical drives, and most importantly the display - yet a PowerMac is overkill for my needs. It sure would be nice to see, but I doubt Apple will do it... :cool:
Well said, I agree with you. Apple, IMHO, needs an "inbetween" machine for upgradablity. This would shorten the gap between consmumer and prosumer.
Well said, I agree with you. Apple, IMHO, needs an "inbetween" machine for upgradablity. This would shorten the gap between consmumer and prosumer.
applefanDrew
Mar 25, 11:25 PM
I'm really not looking forward to Lion at all. It just seems like a huge step backwards for those of us that use our computers as real computers and not toys. I have an ipad, an iphone and several macs, but they each have specific uses. I don't want my desktop machine to be anything like my ipad, one is for doing real work and doing my daily stuff on, the iOS gadgets are for fun games and browsing mostly.
I LOATH the whole idea of merging OSX and iOS, they shouldn't even be related. I hate how they are ruining expose, I really don't want my stuff groups by app, I want to see every window like it is now. I have no use for "full screen" apps, why would I waste all my screen real estate only showing one thing at a time? I hate the idea of getting programs through the app store on the Mac, I refuse to do that. I hate all the gesture crap going on, sure it's fine for laptop users, but it's of no use to me on my mac pro.
I think all this is just a dumbing down of what is an amazing OS. I don't use my mac with dual displays anything like I'd use an iPad, so why put that crap in there? I just don't like the direction they are taking OSX in general, and I doubt I will upgrade from snow leopard. To me this is very sad news, the day OSX and iOS merge is the day the mac dies.
I'm pretty susre you don't HAVE to use the new stuff. Old expose is still there for instance.
I LOATH the whole idea of merging OSX and iOS, they shouldn't even be related. I hate how they are ruining expose, I really don't want my stuff groups by app, I want to see every window like it is now. I have no use for "full screen" apps, why would I waste all my screen real estate only showing one thing at a time? I hate the idea of getting programs through the app store on the Mac, I refuse to do that. I hate all the gesture crap going on, sure it's fine for laptop users, but it's of no use to me on my mac pro.
I think all this is just a dumbing down of what is an amazing OS. I don't use my mac with dual displays anything like I'd use an iPad, so why put that crap in there? I just don't like the direction they are taking OSX in general, and I doubt I will upgrade from snow leopard. To me this is very sad news, the day OSX and iOS merge is the day the mac dies.
I'm pretty susre you don't HAVE to use the new stuff. Old expose is still there for instance.
puuukeey
Nov 28, 10:39 PM
https://home.comcast.net/~puuukeey/evil2.gif
srf4real
Aug 25, 10:01 PM
I hope Apple doesn't go the way of every other corporation that gets huge and loses sight of the bread and butter- customer base. In a world full of computers, I want to be helped by a human with common sense. Apple support has always been good to me, although I haven't needed a thing since buying my G4 mini last summer and signing up a dotmac account. (just to end on a positive note:)
damnyooneek
Apr 25, 03:50 PM
the question is if the tracking info is sent to anyone or is it just a log of places that is in a file on your own phone.
patp
Mar 22, 02:56 PM
Isn't this just a big game of catch up amongst the others (Samsung, RIM etc)?
Apple is so far ahead in the game it's kind of sad to see the other companies scramble like this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Apple is so far ahead in the game it's kind of sad to see the other companies scramble like this.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Nuck81
Dec 5, 01:57 AM
I feel like a little cheating girl, but i turned on the skid recovery thing for the Lambo race in the Italy tour. I really wish i could do it without being a wimp, but its just not worth the frustration for me. I'll have to try the Alfa Romeo time trial with the skid thing on and see how that helps me.
There needs to be more snow rally races. The beginner snow rally is the most fun i've had in the game so far. Its just perfect in every way.
Snow Rally's are a blast.
I'm in that grind stage right now, where I have completed all but the F1 and Endurance races.
The problem with Endurance Races, 24 hours at Le Mans is actually 24 hours:eek:
There needs to be more snow rally races. The beginner snow rally is the most fun i've had in the game so far. Its just perfect in every way.
Snow Rally's are a blast.
I'm in that grind stage right now, where I have completed all but the F1 and Endurance races.
The problem with Endurance Races, 24 hours at Le Mans is actually 24 hours:eek:
Xarthan
Apr 6, 01:58 AM
hopefully this will be 64 bit, my other 12 cores are weeping due to neglect :(
JoEw
Mar 31, 08:13 PM
Google wants to do with android, what apple has been doing for the past 4 years with ios. Actually make money!
The only reason google made android open source was to get a lot of money invested in the ecosystem (HTC is basically dependent on android now). I see google charging handset manufacturers like HTC for it's OS in the near future.
Because when all is said and done, Google is a company and like any other company, it's goal is profit.
The only reason google made android open source was to get a lot of money invested in the ecosystem (HTC is basically dependent on android now). I see google charging handset manufacturers like HTC for it's OS in the near future.
Because when all is said and done, Google is a company and like any other company, it's goal is profit.
bobthedino
Apr 27, 08:23 AM
This is a lie
Keeping a database of our general location is logging our location. :mad: Does Apple really think this double talk, where they say they keep a database of location but don't log the location is going to fly?
At least our overlord will now, I hope, stop collecting location data when location services are turned off. It's a disgrace that it took a media storm to shame them into action.
But it's not "logging your location". If you look at the data that is being stored, there is one entry per location. If Apple was keeping a log of your movements over time, you'd expect there to be many entries for places you go to frequently, but there are not. consolidated.db is simply a cache used by the Core Location framework, nothing more.
This is not to say that Apple should have let the cache grow indefinitely - this is definitely bad. But they're going to fix it, and it'll be easy for us to verify, as we know how to check for the file now.
Keeping a database of our general location is logging our location. :mad: Does Apple really think this double talk, where they say they keep a database of location but don't log the location is going to fly?
At least our overlord will now, I hope, stop collecting location data when location services are turned off. It's a disgrace that it took a media storm to shame them into action.
But it's not "logging your location". If you look at the data that is being stored, there is one entry per location. If Apple was keeping a log of your movements over time, you'd expect there to be many entries for places you go to frequently, but there are not. consolidated.db is simply a cache used by the Core Location framework, nothing more.
This is not to say that Apple should have let the cache grow indefinitely - this is definitely bad. But they're going to fix it, and it'll be easy for us to verify, as we know how to check for the file now.
rjohnstone
Apr 25, 03:19 PM
"Federal Marshals need a warrant. . . . . "
Duh, the police always have to jump over a higher bar . . . I, personally, can come into your home, take your bag of cocaine, and go give it to the police and it will be admissible, even though the cops need a warrant. (I can be sued for breaking and entering, etc., but the drugs are still admissible
Actually it would not be admissible.
The police would not be able to verify where it actually came from unless they actually watched you retrieve it.
At that point a good attorney would argue that you were acting as an agent of the police and the subsequent discovery and retrieval of the coke would fall under the same rules for gathering evidence and require a warrant.
The coke evidence would get tossed and you would go to jail for breaking and entering.
The officers who you handed the coke too would either be reprimanded or fired.
Duh, the police always have to jump over a higher bar . . . I, personally, can come into your home, take your bag of cocaine, and go give it to the police and it will be admissible, even though the cops need a warrant. (I can be sued for breaking and entering, etc., but the drugs are still admissible
Actually it would not be admissible.
The police would not be able to verify where it actually came from unless they actually watched you retrieve it.
At that point a good attorney would argue that you were acting as an agent of the police and the subsequent discovery and retrieval of the coke would fall under the same rules for gathering evidence and require a warrant.
The coke evidence would get tossed and you would go to jail for breaking and entering.
The officers who you handed the coke too would either be reprimanded or fired.
Dan==
Jul 31, 09:35 AM
I think that the bigger issue with Dan=='s design (full credit and kudos for the idea!) is that the Mac Mini is so small that it only uses laptop components. If you want to have a full-size optical drive or a full-size hard drive, you need to use a larger form factor. This is part of the reason for the size of my design.
Here's a comparison in sizes (I've also changed the floor because my wife thought that the reflection was confusing...)
http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsFrontSm.png
http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsBackSm.png
Cheers!
Now you've got some skills. I especially like the shadowing, reflections and detail on the back side. Very nice.
I agree with your size assessment.
Actually, our designs are quite close, differing primarily in cosmetics. What I'm refering to is my earlier design, (which I suspect you missed) not boncellis'. boncellis wished to see a wider, flatter version for use in home entertainment, so I conjured that 2nd one up for visualization. While that form factor has grown on me somewhat, I still like the taller version, as I had done earlier, and you've shown here, as well.
Here's my initial design, from earlier in this thread.
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg
The size of mine is a little smaller (narrower) - I wanted the whole thing less than 8" wide, though it could go back a little deeper, i.e. not necessarily square.
Also, see possible/hoped for product specs earlier in the thread.
Personally, I think I still prefer the smoother Mini-like skin than the perforated look of the Pro, but I'm just quibbling.
Thanks for the imagery.
-Dan
Here's a comparison in sizes (I've also changed the floor because my wife thought that the reflection was confusing...)
http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsFrontSm.png
http://www.ghwphoto.com/3MacsBackSm.png
Cheers!
Now you've got some skills. I especially like the shadowing, reflections and detail on the back side. Very nice.
I agree with your size assessment.
Actually, our designs are quite close, differing primarily in cosmetics. What I'm refering to is my earlier design, (which I suspect you missed) not boncellis'. boncellis wished to see a wider, flatter version for use in home entertainment, so I conjured that 2nd one up for visualization. While that form factor has grown on me somewhat, I still like the taller version, as I had done earlier, and you've shown here, as well.
Here's my initial design, from earlier in this thread.
http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9648/macandmacminipx9.jpg
The size of mine is a little smaller (narrower) - I wanted the whole thing less than 8" wide, though it could go back a little deeper, i.e. not necessarily square.
Also, see possible/hoped for product specs earlier in the thread.
Personally, I think I still prefer the smoother Mini-like skin than the perforated look of the Pro, but I'm just quibbling.
Thanks for the imagery.
-Dan
lyzardking
Apr 7, 04:56 PM
Hot type or cold?
Wouldn't really need to know how to type if it was hot type
;)
Wouldn't really need to know how to type if it was hot type
;)
mandoman
Nov 28, 06:33 PM
Universal can take their catalog of music and shove it where
the sun don't shine.
the sun don't shine.
FF_productions
Aug 5, 03:26 PM
Finally MR has put together a final rumor roundup...
bedifferent
Apr 12, 10:02 AM
Difinitely not. I won't say where I'd agree and disagree with for the rest of it, but that last sentence isn't right. Thousands implies a rather low number. Not nearly enough revenue for Apple to keep working on FCS. ;)
Ha ;) I love, too true. Those "thousands" could become a larger number, and not just editors but professionals in general as well as high end consumers who would strongly benefit and pony up for a mid range Pro tower as well as the prosumer grade programs.
Slightly off topic, I always wondered about Apple's initial venture into the mobile market, especially given Apple's failed attempt in partnering with Motorola for the "ROKR" (anyone recall the 2005 TV ads with Madonna shamelessly promoting her "Confessions on a Dance Floor" for a cool $5 million?).
Two years later came the iPhone. Makes you wonder why Apple "tested" the mobile market with the ROKR knowing the iPhone wasn't far away.
Ha ;) I love, too true. Those "thousands" could become a larger number, and not just editors but professionals in general as well as high end consumers who would strongly benefit and pony up for a mid range Pro tower as well as the prosumer grade programs.
Slightly off topic, I always wondered about Apple's initial venture into the mobile market, especially given Apple's failed attempt in partnering with Motorola for the "ROKR" (anyone recall the 2005 TV ads with Madonna shamelessly promoting her "Confessions on a Dance Floor" for a cool $5 million?).
Two years later came the iPhone. Makes you wonder why Apple "tested" the mobile market with the ROKR knowing the iPhone wasn't far away.
wovel
Apr 19, 04:20 PM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/19/analysis-of-apples-lawsuit-against-samsung-includes-ios-device-sales-numbers/)
http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/19/142014-apple_samsung_lawsuit.jpg
Former Engadget editor Nilay Patel lays out a thorough analysis (http://thisismynext.com/2011/04/19/apple-sues-samsung-analysis/) of Apple's newly-filed lawsuit targeting Samsung (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/18/apple-targets-samsung-with-new-lawsuit-over-galaxy-line/) for allegedly copying the "look and feel" of iOS devices with its "Galaxy" line of smartphones and tablets. Patel offers an excellent look at the overall lawsuit, as well as a claim-by-claim analysis of each of Apple's sixteen claims against Samsung.The entire report is a solid read for those looking to understand more about how Apple is approaching the issue.
Interestingly, the background portion of the lawsuit also provides total sales numbers for various iOS devices "as of March 2011". Comparing those numbers to known sales as of the end of asymco's Horace Dediu has calculated minimum unit shipments (http://www.asymco.com/2011/04/19/review-of-apples-unit-numbers-released-in-legal-filing-prior-to-earnings/) for the various devices during the first quarter of 2011.
In the lawsuit, Apple variously notes that either "as of" or "by" March Apple had sold more than 108 million iPhones, over 60 million iPod touches, and over 19 million iPads.The question becomes whether the implied level of 4.2 million iPads sold during the first quarter of 2011 is an accurate number, in which case Apple's performance would have fallen well below expectations, or simply an understatement by the company.
Apple is set to announce official figures for the quarter at its earnings release (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/18/apple-to-announce-q2-2011-financial-results-on-april-20th/) tomorrow. The release should include specific sales figures for the iPhone and iPad, but Apple generally does not issue specific numbers for the iPod touch, instead reporting total sales for all iPod models and then sometimes breaking out a rough share for the iPod touch or stating the device's growth as a means of highlighting its performance on the earnings conference call.
Article Link: Analysis of Apple's Lawsuit Against Samsung, Includes iOS Device Sales Numbers (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/19/analysis-of-apples-lawsuit-against-samsung-includes-ios-device-sales-numbers/)
Why is it so hard for people to read English. Nowhere does it indicate those are numbers for the first quarter. In fact it is pretty clear it does not actually include the month of March..
http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/04/19/142014-apple_samsung_lawsuit.jpg
Former Engadget editor Nilay Patel lays out a thorough analysis (http://thisismynext.com/2011/04/19/apple-sues-samsung-analysis/) of Apple's newly-filed lawsuit targeting Samsung (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/18/apple-targets-samsung-with-new-lawsuit-over-galaxy-line/) for allegedly copying the "look and feel" of iOS devices with its "Galaxy" line of smartphones and tablets. Patel offers an excellent look at the overall lawsuit, as well as a claim-by-claim analysis of each of Apple's sixteen claims against Samsung.The entire report is a solid read for those looking to understand more about how Apple is approaching the issue.
Interestingly, the background portion of the lawsuit also provides total sales numbers for various iOS devices "as of March 2011". Comparing those numbers to known sales as of the end of asymco's Horace Dediu has calculated minimum unit shipments (http://www.asymco.com/2011/04/19/review-of-apples-unit-numbers-released-in-legal-filing-prior-to-earnings/) for the various devices during the first quarter of 2011.
In the lawsuit, Apple variously notes that either "as of" or "by" March Apple had sold more than 108 million iPhones, over 60 million iPod touches, and over 19 million iPads.The question becomes whether the implied level of 4.2 million iPads sold during the first quarter of 2011 is an accurate number, in which case Apple's performance would have fallen well below expectations, or simply an understatement by the company.
Apple is set to announce official figures for the quarter at its earnings release (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/18/apple-to-announce-q2-2011-financial-results-on-april-20th/) tomorrow. The release should include specific sales figures for the iPhone and iPad, but Apple generally does not issue specific numbers for the iPod touch, instead reporting total sales for all iPod models and then sometimes breaking out a rough share for the iPod touch or stating the device's growth as a means of highlighting its performance on the earnings conference call.
Article Link: Analysis of Apple's Lawsuit Against Samsung, Includes iOS Device Sales Numbers (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/04/19/analysis-of-apples-lawsuit-against-samsung-includes-ios-device-sales-numbers/)
Why is it so hard for people to read English. Nowhere does it indicate those are numbers for the first quarter. In fact it is pretty clear it does not actually include the month of March..
arkitect
Apr 28, 06:13 AM
I am not going to read 7 pages to see if someone already said this because I am sure they did.
It's clearly a forgery.
And you base that on what evidence exactly? :confused:
Not liking Obama does not mean you are racist.
Well judging by your signature I'd take that comment with a large pinch of salt.
It's clearly a forgery.
And you base that on what evidence exactly? :confused:
Not liking Obama does not mean you are racist.
Well judging by your signature I'd take that comment with a large pinch of salt.
maelstromr
Apr 20, 10:34 AM
Where did i say I don't like how IP works buddy? Where in my post does it read 'don't like the way IP law works' ? Wipe your tears and try again... Don't make $#!t up.
the rest of your blurb about stuff in your head that I didn't event write isn't worth responding too...
My anecdote premise was pretty straight forward...
Two dudes who come from some place where they don't read tech feeds as often as the rest of us here... they go to a city shop and get sold phones that look like the ones they heard about...iPhones... the premise is not necessarily from the US... from any country on the planet where average Joes go to a tech shop to buy a smartphone... they look and feel and work in very similar ways which causes confusion.
P.S. The whole point of Apple's patent leverage is that they have... patented everything about their devices... form factor, processes, icons and interface... When you read deep into the context and content of Apple's submission which includes these comparisons and that Samsung copied everything and then applying a slight-of-hand to make it look a little different...
:rolleyes:
Like i say.. a bunch of Jawa's selling second hand Android's
So maybe I misunderstood your fist post...or your use of ":rolleyes:". If you think suggesting that people could not possibly confuse Samsung products with Apple products is silly, then we agree.
If I did misread, perhaps I should not have used your post as a quote - I stand by my point for all the other ridiculous claims that Samsung's products are not Apple clones or do not impact/infringe on Apple products/sales/market position.
the rest of your blurb about stuff in your head that I didn't event write isn't worth responding too...
My anecdote premise was pretty straight forward...
Two dudes who come from some place where they don't read tech feeds as often as the rest of us here... they go to a city shop and get sold phones that look like the ones they heard about...iPhones... the premise is not necessarily from the US... from any country on the planet where average Joes go to a tech shop to buy a smartphone... they look and feel and work in very similar ways which causes confusion.
P.S. The whole point of Apple's patent leverage is that they have... patented everything about their devices... form factor, processes, icons and interface... When you read deep into the context and content of Apple's submission which includes these comparisons and that Samsung copied everything and then applying a slight-of-hand to make it look a little different...
:rolleyes:
Like i say.. a bunch of Jawa's selling second hand Android's
So maybe I misunderstood your fist post...or your use of ":rolleyes:". If you think suggesting that people could not possibly confuse Samsung products with Apple products is silly, then we agree.
If I did misread, perhaps I should not have used your post as a quote - I stand by my point for all the other ridiculous claims that Samsung's products are not Apple clones or do not impact/infringe on Apple products/sales/market position.
LagunaSol
Apr 6, 04:08 PM
Is every app in the app store of the same caliber as those few apps you named?
Did I say that? No. (Strawman alert.) But there are a lot. Far more than you'll find for Honeycomb, despite mobilehavoc's contention to the contrary.
I'm sure you'll be the first to dance happy around when in the future finally some 5 year old Android apps/games will get ported to iOS like it is now with Windows/MacOS.
Ah, Android gaming. You seem to have things reversed in your head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JICitdMtY5U
Did I say that? No. (Strawman alert.) But there are a lot. Far more than you'll find for Honeycomb, despite mobilehavoc's contention to the contrary.
I'm sure you'll be the first to dance happy around when in the future finally some 5 year old Android apps/games will get ported to iOS like it is now with Windows/MacOS.
Ah, Android gaming. You seem to have things reversed in your head:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JICitdMtY5U
dissdnt
Jun 9, 12:36 AM
Radio Shack is still around. :P
It's probably the best place to go. NO ONE is going to know that Radio Shack has the iPhone. Probably a quicker in and out then Best Buy or an Apple Store.
But honestly this whole trade in thing sounds fishy. Why would they give you 270 for a phone you can buy brand new starting the launch date for half that.
It's probably the best place to go. NO ONE is going to know that Radio Shack has the iPhone. Probably a quicker in and out then Best Buy or an Apple Store.
But honestly this whole trade in thing sounds fishy. Why would they give you 270 for a phone you can buy brand new starting the launch date for half that.
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